Fred and Anna Marie Johnson Interview, 2008

Angela Robinson [00:00:03] This is Angela Robinson, researcher for Cleveland State University. I'm here interviewing Mr. Fred Johnson along with his wife, Anna Marie Johnson, residents of the Hough area.

Unknown speaker [00:00:28] Okay, are we ready? Okay.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:00:30] I am Anna Marie Mays Johnson. I was born and reared right here in Cleveland, Ohio, at an address called 9906 Streator Court, which is four houses south of Cedar Avenue on 100th Street. I attended school right here in Cleveland. Bolton Elementary School, Fairmount Junior High School. When it closed, I went to Audubon Junior High School and then I graduated from John Adams High School. I spent one year at Spelman College and I transferred to Kent State University, where I graduated with a B.S. degree in elementary education. I was hired by the Cleveland Board of Education as an elementary teacher, and I taught in the primary grades for 30 years, most of them at Corlett Elementary School.

Fred Johnson [00:01:23] My name is Frederick D. Johnson. I was born in Pleasant Hill, Louisiana, September 6, 1930. We lived in Pleasant Hill till I was five years old. We moved from Pleasant Hill to Monroe, Louisiana, and we left Monroe, Louisiana and came to Cleveland, Ohio in 1943. I went to my elementary school in Monroe, Louisiana. But when we arrived in Cleveland, I went to old Central for the 8th grade and for the 9th grade I went to Rawlings Junior High School, left Rawlings Junior High School and went to John Hay High School and graduated in June of 1948. And that's another.

Angela Robinson [00:02:18] What did you do after?

Fred Johnson [00:02:20] After that? After I graduated, I got a job for about a year I worked for Dunbar Life Insurance Company. I worked at Chase, Brass and Copper for about three or four months. I got a burn working in the furnace department there and I wasn't able to go back there to work. So then after then I went to the Air Force, U.S. Air Force, for three and a half years. I served half of what I call- They extended my term. I was supposed to just be enlisted for three years. And then the Korean War broke out and they added a year to my enlistment. And luckily it. It came to a close rather rapidly and I was able to get out within six months. Then when I left there, I went to Kent State University for a couple of years and I left there when we got married. And I lived with my parents for a couple of years after I got married. And then I moved from there to 4012 East 155th Street, where we lived for 42 years at Kent State University. And after then. I became a police officer for the city of Cleveland. And I served the city of Cleveland for 29 and a half years. Mm-hmm.

Angela Robinson [00:04:04] Did any of you receive any special awards or special recognitions, and what are they?

Fred Johnson [00:04:12] I received a few awards while I was on the police department, basically from the organization that I helped resurrect called the Shield Club. It later became the Black Shield Police Association. I was president of that group for 11 years. Then I was part of the formation of the National Black Police association, which I received the National Law Enforcement Award from them in 1984. I received several commendations from the local organization over the years. I retired and in July 2, 1983. So as of right now, I've been retiring for 25 years. Been very lucky.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:05:02] And what about your involvement with the lawsuit?

Fred Johnson [00:05:07] Well, yes, during my time as president of the Black Shield, or the Shield Club, I filed a lawsuit against the police department, Cleveland Police Department, for racial discrimination in its hiring, promotion and assignment policies. And we won. And basically, that lawsuit controlled the hiring, promotion and assignments of police officers for almost 20 years. It was filed first in 1972. October 1972. And the provisions. That lawsuit ended in 1995. So they were basically governed by that lawsuit for all that time. So we helped change the color of the people in uniform. See, there were very few blacks in the job when I got on the job in 19. Oh, when I got on in 19 what?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:06:09] 1958.

Fred Johnson [00:06:11] Oh, no, no, no. When I get on the-

Anna Marie Johnson [00:06:18] It's either '57 or '58.

Fred Johnson [00:06:21] Yeah, okay. I did '57. I became a police officer.

Angela Robinson [00:06:24] I retired in 1957.

Fred Johnson [00:06:27] No, I retired in 1983.

Angela Robinson [00:06:30] Okay. And you became an officer during the late 1950s?

Fred Johnson [00:06:36] No, I became a Cleveland police officer. I never achieved any rank other than becoming a detective. I was a- I worked in the 5th district from 1958. After leaving the police academy in January, I stayed out there until- in uniform until January of 1964.

Angela Robinson [00:07:00] So where's the Fifth District?

Fred Johnson [00:07:02] It was at 1157 East 105th Street. You know where- You know where the American Cancer Society building- It would have been right just north of that. Just north of Euclid. It's been gone now. I was assigned to the 5th district, the one that's there now. The one that's 107th in Chester when it opened in 1960. I was assigned there then, but before then, we were right on 105th Street. Let's see. I remained in the detective division from 1964 until- 11 years I was there to '75. '75.

Angela Robinson [00:07:48] So there were very few Blacks.

Fred Johnson [00:07:51] There were very few Blacks in the police department at that time. Well, less than 100 in the police department at that time. When I left, we had close to 400 on the job. And they fought us tooth and nail. They did not want to increase the number of Blacks in the police department.

Angela Robinson [00:08:06] Why is that?

Fred Johnson [00:08:07] Racial discrimination. And the judge, Judge William K. Thomas was the judge that handled our case from the very beginning until he retired. Even after he retired, he took our case into retirement with him. Mm-hmm.

Angela Robinson [00:08:28] Wow, that's interesting. What about you, Ms. Johnson? Have you seen anything?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:08:34] No. The only awards rewards I receive, I have to say, are my two daughters, Cheryl and Charmaine. Cheryl graduated. Well, both of them graduated from high school right here in Cleveland. Cheryl went to Oberlin and majored in urban planning. Charmaine went to the University of Cincinnati and majored in economics. Currently, Cheryl has a 22-year-old son who just graduated from Fisk. He says his major was political science. Of course, he has a side interest which is baseball. He hopes that he can promote that. And Charmaine is currently in Kansas City with her husband and she is presently a consultant. She worked for the Housing Authority there for quite some time and now she's a consultant.

Angela Robinson [00:09:31] Oh, okay. You mentioned that Cheryl, has she majored in urban planning? Is she active in the community?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:09:46] No. She did work for the city of Cleveland for a number of years and then she left here and went to Alabama and that's where she met her hus- the husband she married, and they became parents. And then when that marriage dissolved, she came back to Cleveland and currently she's with Social Services, with the department. The county. With the county, yeah.

Angela Robinson [00:10:18] Okay. All right. So both of you, how long have you lived- Did you already mention you lived in Cleveland most of your lives?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:10:28] I lived in Cleveland all of my life at nine, nine, in fact, I was born in the house at 9906 Streator Court. That house no longer stands. I think Streator Court is still identified as Sreator Court, but I've been here all of my life.

Angela Robinson [00:10:45] And Mr. Johnson, you moved to Cleveland because your parents-

Fred Johnson [00:10:49] My parents moved to Cleveland.

Angela Robinson [00:10:52] Okay. As you were a child.

Fred Johnson [00:10:56]
Yes.

Angela Robinson [00:10:57]
Or a teenager?

Fred Johnson [00:10:59] I was going to be 13 in 1943 when we moved. I was 12 when I came up here a month later, my birthday was in September. We moved up here in August.

Angela Robinson [00:11:10] Okay. So what were you really a longtime Clevelander?

Fred Johnson [00:11:13] Yes.

Angela Robinson [00:11:15] What do you remember most about- You both grew up in the Fairfax community? What do you remember most about that community growing up?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:11:28] Well, as far as I'm concerned, it seemed that that was the only place to be. It wasn't called Fairfax at that time. It was called the Central area, and it was within walking distance of most of the places we went. I could walk over to Euclid Avenue where they had the shops, clothing shops. Well, as far as I was concerned, I did window shopping mostly. You had those shops- I would think that they were primarily owned by the Jewish ethnic group. I really don't know because being the age that I was, that kind of thing didn't bother me because none of the shop owners were African American. So we just expected all of them to be non-African American because that's just the way it was then. And we also had proliferation of movie theaters over there. There were at least five or six of them. Of course, my mother was the type that we could only go to certain shows. [telephone rings] And is it still on? Where was I?

Angela Robinson [00:12:46] We were talking about- Oh, what you remember most about the neighborhood.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:12:52] Oh. Yeah. So most of the shows we went to were right over there, within walking distance. Of course, we had to go during the day, but the streets were pretty much safe. And I enjoy. I have to say I enjoyed my life there because in the area where we lived, there were about four houses in street of Court. And all of the children would gather in the front because you had two sets of houses facing each other. And we used the driveway, so to speak, for the play area. And behind the houses, we'd play things like kick the can, hopscotch and that kind of thing. Hide and go see. And we just would sit on our front porches and the parents would talk back and forth, you know, especially in the evening. So it was really kind of like a fun time. I was able to work, walked to Bolton School, which was on 90th and between 90th. On 90th, between Cedar and Carnegie at the time. And Fairmount Junior High School was over there by where the Martin Luther King Library is now. That was Fairmount Junior High School. That was the same high school that Jesse Owens and Bob Hope attended. Of course, I wasn't there then. And the only school- The two schools I had to catch the bus to were Audubon and John Adams. Of course, at that time, there were trackless trolleys. They ran on poles. There were poles up in the electrical poles that they ran on. But before the trackless trolleys, we had streetcars that ran in the middle of the street. I think that's what they're trying to revive out here in the Euclid corridor. We. And our fun was to get on the streetcar on Sunday and at 100 and Cedar and go all the way downtown. Right around downtown and come back down to the car barn, which was at Fairhill and Cedar at the time, and then come back home. That was our fun time. Or we just walk over to a dairy company on a hundred in Euclid called Bruder's. We would buy ice cream and come walk back home with ice cream cones, that kind of thing. That was the kind of fun thing we had. The family did not have a car, so if we went anywhere, it was by public transportation. And there was a family in Twinsburg we would visit from time to time. We went by Greyhound bus. So that was pretty much my childhood. Growing up, I had to take piano lessons because my mother made me in theory. But one thing talking about the University Circle area, Western Reserve had a program when I was in elementary school and on up. And I went to summer school at Western Reserve because they taught foreign languages there. And I went there every summer.

Angela Robinson [00:15:46] How did you sign up for-

Anna Marie Johnson [00:15:49] Through the school. The school had applications, and I think at the time it was $10 a summer, $10 per person a summer. So my mother sent the three of us there. My brother, I started When I was 10, my sister was 11 and my brother was 6. And he and I were in the same class that first summer. But I was good enough to go to the next class the next summer. But he stayed in that one class for two summers and then he moved on. But it was a lot of fun. It was 3 hours, 10 minute recess in each hour. And we was at the Flora Mather Building. It was manned by the top teachers in the greater Cleveland area. We had a lot of fun, I would think. And most of the time we just walked there from 100 and Cedar to Western Reserve and back again.

Angela Robinson [00:16:53] So they recruited Cleveland teachers to come to Western Reserve?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:17:00] Well, the greater Cleveland area, not just teachers in Cleveland. Most of the teachers were from the suburban areas. There were some teachers from the Cleveland area because I didn't know until I got older where these teachers came from. I found out that my first year teacher was a Cleveland teacher. She taught French in the Cleveland system, but I don't know where the others came from.

Angela Robinson [00:17:30] What about you, Mr. Johnson? What do you remember most about the Fairfax area?

Fred Johnson [00:17:37] Well, we lived at 8610 Beckman. Well, let me start off by saying this. When we got to Cleveland in 1943, we lived at 2410 East 57th Street, which is a part of the site where East Tech is now. We were there for about six months and we moved down to 8709 Frederick Avenue. And I- I was- At the time, I was attending Central Junior, old Central, which is the location where George Washington Carver is on 55th Street. I mean, on 55th Street now. And I was happy at that school. But sometime during that first year, we moved down on Frederick. And I didn't notify the school that I had moved. But at the end of the term, I got my report card and my transfer was in that envelope. But in the meantime, we moved to 8610 Beckman. This is where I lived most of my time until I got married. Until I got married. But what I remember about that area was that it was. Well, I didn't have a difficult time walking over to Rawlings Junior High School. It wasn't really that far. It took me about 15 minutes to get over it, maybe 20. But I spent most of my time because I love to read. I love to read books. And at East 79th and Quincy, there was a library. The building is still there. It's being refurbished now. And I understand they're going to make it a library again. And I'm, I'm anxious to see it when it's redone. But I spent a lot of time there. We had a lot of Black businesses. I shouldn't say a lot, but had the Black barbershops there. We had the black hardware store there that was at 87th and Douglas. Dennis was the proprietor of that hardware store. And it was. We had stores along that Fisher store. We had an A and P. You know, we didn't do a lot of shopping there because Mother always thought it was cheaper to go down to Central Market. So I'd always go down to Central Market with her on the streetcar and we'd bring the groceries back from there. Central Market is the location where Jacobs Field and the other, the basketball thing is now in Ontario now.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:20:24] The Q [Quicken Loans Arena].

Fred Johnson [00:20:26] Yeah, the Q. That's what they call it now. But I enjoyed the area when I wasn't there. After I left that to go to the service, you know, after I got out of high school, I worked at Chase, Brass and Carbon, like I told you earlier. And then I worked for Dunbar Life Insurance Company. I wasn't happy with that job, so I went down and enlisted in the Air Force. You know. And I was gone for three and a half years.

Angela Robinson [00:20:59] So during that time, did you notice any changes that had taken place in the neighborhood at that time?

Fred Johnson [00:21:10] Yeah, when we moved from East 57th Street, moved down to Frederick, our neighbors were white on that street. There were quite a few on the street then. We were only there about six months. We moved two blocks down. My dad and mother bought a home there, and there was some whites still on that street on Beckman street too. But wasn't too long before all of them had moved and became an all-Black neighborhood.

Angela Robinson [00:21:43] What was the reason for the whites movement?

Fred Johnson [00:21:47] When we moved, we lived with some people on East 57th Street. There was a man and his wife and they had, I guess a grandchild that was living there with them. So we were in there for six months living with him, the four of us did. And then we moved down to a home on Frederick and we took over a whole house down there. A guy owned the house that dad knew, so he let us have that house and we lived there with my uncle and his wife and a daughter. Only there for six months. And my parents saved enough money to buy a house and moved down on Beckman. And dad lived there until five or six years ago? Well, he passed here just here on May 1st. But he lived there all that time, 50 something years. What else about the area? Well, we had one Black drugstore which was on the corner, 83rd and Quincy. And that's where my mother used to get her prescriptions filled. And we had Black dentists. A couple of them lived, were there between 86th and 88th Quincy. We had the Black funeral home, which is still there was a Miller, Cynthia Miller, I guess, I believe is still there. I'm not sure. Then we had a Black cleaners. We had the Black grocery store too. They had a couple of stores. I don't think of their names now.

Angela Robinson [00:23:38] Were these businesses all- They were like mixed in with the white business? So you had-

Fred Johnson [00:23:45] Yeah, that was white businesses [inaudible]
Angela Robinson [00:23:47] Yeah, but it was also mixed in with the Black businesses?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:23:50] Yeah, okay, that wasn't so where I was. So when I was growing up, they were all white businesses. And then as I don't know what happened, but on the corner of 100 Street and Cedar, you had two grocery stores that were Black-owned. The white businesses had moved out. And I have to mention Shauter's drugstore at 93rd and Cedar. That was the church hangout. Antioch Church would go to 93rd and Cedar after their service was over. And St. James people would go to 83rd and Cedar after their church service because the church that I attended at the time, they had Sunday school after, after church. And there was a rule in most houses that if you want to go out on the weekend, you have to go to church on Sunday. So most of the young people opted to go to St. James Sunday School that would take care of their church because they didn't have to get up early because church Sunday school usually started around 12, 12:30. And it was over by 1:30. You're usually over by 1:30. And that's what happened. I was sitting in an office, a medical office, and I heard somebody talking to one. A couple of the patients were talking to each other. Yes. She met her husband or he met his wife at Antioch Sunday School listened. I said, that's not so. When she finished, I said, you mean St. James Sunday School, don't you? Yes, I sure do. Because young people from all over the city pretty much came to St. James Sunday School. It was a pretty big Sunday school. We'd have an attendance of 200-some per Sunday. And that later changed as times changed. Television sports on Sunday times changed. So they went to the traditional 9:30 in the morning Sunday school. And then a lot of the churches cut out the evening service on Sundays. They used to have evening service at 6, about 6pm every Sunday. But crime caused them to stop that. And they used to have the Wednesday evening prayer meetings. A lot of lot of the churches cut that out because of crying. And what kind of crime was going on? Well, robbings, you know, purse snatchings and whatnot, getting knocked in the head and that they walking to and from because most of the people walked. You didn't have too many cars. Most of the people walked to and from. Because I know our family never did have a car and we always walked or caught public transportation.

Angela Robinson [00:26:43] Was this Black on Black crime?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:26:46] Yeah. Just like it is now. Pretty much that. And I have to admit, going back to what he said about the police department, I don't recall ever having seen a Black policeman. All the policemen I had, I had saw during my growing up years were white. I didn't see any Black policemen and firemen either. And with time, it all changed. And it was safe to walk the streets, even though some of the men hanging out in front of the bars. There were quite a few bars. In fact, Cedar Avenue was considered the social mecca for the Black community. And you could pass those bars and some of them would be inebriated, hanging out, and they'd speak to you politely. They didn't bother you. If anybody bothered you, you would- Leave that girl alone, she's not bothering you. And we were well protected. We could walk to and from school, no harm, no danger. And it's unfortunate it's not that way now. But we did enjoy our neighborhood. Of course, there were places in the city of Cleveland in the North we did not go because we knew we wouldn't be accepted. And, and we didn't go to restaurants or places of that kind. And we even went into stores and we stood and stood and stood. Clerks aren't doing anything, but they look at you and you didn't get taken care of. Maybe you got taken care of. Maybe they waited on you with a snarl or something like that. But they claim the North was supposed to be the place to go, but it was the, let me see, what was that word? The prejudice wasn't as pronounced here as it was. That was covert. But you knew, you know, you pass by. A lot of times you pass by. You pass by a business and you pass it by. The proprietors, you know, smile at you. These Asians come out there smoking their cigarettes. They don't even see you.

Fred Johnson [00:28:58] You can go in the store and they won't see you. They got Blacks in there serving you and they don't act like they won't even wait on you.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:29:06] And I don't know why we will let these people come in our neighborhoods and just take over. We will support them and we won't support our own. I don't understand it. I don't understand it. I don't care if their prices are lower like the dollar store. I refuse to go to the dollar stores. They all owned by Asian. They don't respect you. They give you no respect whatsoever.

Angela Robinson [00:29:43] Okay, during the- So let's move up in time. When do you think people started moving out of these areas and why?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:29:54] Well, the mindset. Oh, I have, you know, the laws changed wherein you could sue if you were discriminated against.

Fred Johnson [00:30:06] Housing discrimination laws were passed.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:30:08] Integration, that's what happened. Integration came and I can move to another area now. I don't have to stay confined with my own group of people. I can move in and among other groups of people. So here I go, I have the money and I can move. Because we did that, we left. We were living in his parents' home and we moved to Lee-Harvard. We, we had non-African American neighbors and they referred to our children as colored. Cheryl ran in the house one day and said, Johnny called me colored. It must be because of what I'm wearing. I said, of course, it's your dress, honey. And they were riding their little tricycle down the street and I just happened to come to the end of the driveway and look and they were surrounded by non-African American children. Children. And I called them home and I told them I thought it would be best if they stayed in the yard. And don't go out unless Fred or I are with you. And I really believe this is when people started moving, you know, going to these different places. This is when our mom and pop stores died. The Black businesses, the Black restaurants died because we could go to those other places now and we can infiltrate them. And I just think it was a sad day. And it was one of my devotional readings, said, what did we lose and gain in the same day? We lost our businesses and gained integration, all in the same day. And that, to me, is a sorry day for, for African Americans. That was when we really lost our unity.

Fred Johnson [00:32:01] We have not developed a political economy for ourselves, and we don't want to support our own business once we get them established in our neighborhoods. So what happened? The Arabs and Asians, they came in and they bought out some of the Black. Most of the Black business offered them large sums of money. And the owners then felt they had to get that money because it was so big. I know one guy who was a friend of my brother's, grew up together. He sold two of his businesses to the Asians or Arabs, whatever it was. They offered him such large sums of money, he couldn't turn it down. And as a result of that, we don't have any way of providing sustenance growth for our own young people. Coming up, you see people working in the stores, a few of them, but we don't own those stores. We're not building up any capital. So we can, you know, progress as a group of people. And that's something we need to change. We just have to go back to. If we have to go back to our own neighborhood, it's fine, you know, so we can build something for our own. Why should we have to continue having to go to white folks to ask for a job?

Angela Robinson [00:33:22] So why did you, you all, when you left East 155th, why did you move back to this area?

Fred Johnson [00:33:31] Well, there were several reasons. Number one was, I guess we wanted a house that was all on one level. We got older, so we entered a home that we never had, a new house. And we had an opportunity to buy one down in this area, build it according. Basically according to our own specifications.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:33:54] And also that's the tax incentive.

Fred Johnson [00:33:56] Tax incentive was good. 15 years tax abatement.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:34:00] And it was close to. At the time, was close to the church I was attending. And his father.

Fred Johnson [00:34:07] Yeah, my dad, you know, his father

Anna Marie Johnson [00:34:09] was living alone and. And, you know, he was able to get to him rather quickly. In fact, the day that his father fell, he was able to get there just as the ambulance was leaving. So he was, you know, those were the reasons. Convenience in the old age.

Angela Robinson [00:34:33] Okay. Are you happy?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:34:36] Oh yeah, I'm pleased with it.

Fred Johnson [00:34:39] Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:34:40] I can't say I'm, well, ecstatic.

Fred Johnson [00:34:41] Well, that building that was there on the corner, big old apartment, we're glad that it burned down. There was nobody in it. It was uninhabited, but the guy maintained it. But he just wouldn't allow anybody to live in it. He said if I let somebody move in this building, they're going to help tear it down. So he just kept it. He just died here last year.

Angela Robinson [00:35:04] Was it? Who owned it?

Fred Johnson [00:35:05] It was an old guy that owned all this property along here.

Angela Robinson [00:35:08] Is that the? The new signs that are posted up?

Fred Johnson [00:35:11] No, no, not that building.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:35:12] No, right here.

Fred Johnson [00:35:13] Right here on the corner. It was the Thanksgiving day after Thanksgiving, wasn't it?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:35:19] Saturday after Thanksgiving, two years ago. I was supposed to go to a Phi Delta Kappa meeting. I couldn't get out because fire trucks were all lined up and down the street. I couldn't even get out.

Fred Johnson [00:35:26] It burned to the ground. He also owned the old hotel across the street where you see all the shrubbery growing up around it. But I guess he left that to his children. He died in a nursing home on the West Side.

Angela Robinson [00:35:38] Was he Black?

Fred Johnson [00:36:42] He was Black. But he told us he even had a book written about his history here in this area. And a Jewish lawyer he used to work for, their family owned this area. So after the Hough Riots, they wanted to get out of here. They sold him that property for a dollar a parcel. Okay? He got all this property. He was in control of all of it. The old Hough Theater, these lots along here. That was a 21-suite apartment building over there. Plus he kept telling us he was going to rehab that old hotel. I said please don't. [laughs] Please don't do that. But anyway, he almost died in that fire too. He accidentally set that fire. He didn't have a furnace in there or anything. He was using a- What do you call one of these? Space heaters. He had put the kerosene in it, but didn't realize there was a leak in the bottom of it. He lit the match and it encircled him. He was lucky to get out of there. His name was Ben-

Anna Marie Johnson [00:36:44] I don't know. I have no idea what his name was.

Fred Johnson [00:36:46] He had an Arab name, but he was. He was a Black guy.

Angela Robinson [00:36:50] Is a book written about him?

Fred Johnson [00:36:52] It's one of those that you can have privately published? That's what he did. [crosstalk] He had written- Oh yeah.

Angela Robinson [00:37:02] Do you know the title of the book?

Fred Johnson [00:37:04] I don't know what the title was. I read it. He gave it to me to read, and I gave it back to him. But Fannie Lewis probably has some. He was very close to her. Very close to her.

Angela Robinson [00:37:21] And his first name is Ben?

Fred Johnson [00:37:23] Ben, yeah. Mm-hmm. She might have some history of him in her files and her records. She lives over at 7400 Star. 74- Uncle Williams was 7421. Her son must be 7420 or 7422 Star Avenue.

Angela Robinson [00:37:48] Okay. She's still over here?

Fred Johnson [00:37:49] Yeah, she still lives there.

Angela Robinson [00:37:56] What do you think about Cleveland Clinic's expansion over in this neighborhood and how do neighbors, you know, your neighbors feel about it?

Fred Johnson [00:38:07] Well, so far, I have no real complaints about them. They provide a lot of employment to people that live in this neighborhood. I know a lot of people live in the suburban areas, come down, they work there and go out to the suburbs every evening. But there are a lot of black folks that live in this area that work over there. From what I've seen, their development seems to be a benefit, and I think it's going to even get better because now they're rehabbing these old buildings, office buildings along Euclid Avenue, making condos out of them. And I know they're not going to be basically for us, but we're going to benefit some sort of way. They might even eventually be able to. Once Fannie Lewis leaves, there'll be some people moving over in this area probably. They'll be buying some of this property. But she's been able to stop it, you know, since she's been councilman all these years.

Angela Robinson [00:39:03] She's [inaudible]
Fred Johnson [00:39:06] [inaudible] -from coming over here, this area, because they're expanding this, this way, north of Chester.

Angela Robinson [00:39:12] What's her reason?

Fred Johnson [00:39:14] Well, she feels that it'll be a detriment to our community because they'll be moving us out of here and building these new apartments and whatever, condos, and we can't afford.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:39:29] Because when you look around, of course, now the people next door over here, he's an attorney. I don't know what she does, but the other people, especially that apartment building right there. Yeah, everybody's home all day long.

Fred Johnson [00:39:46] Section 8 people, I guess.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:39:47] And so.

Angela Robinson [00:39:50] Yeah, so you have professionals.

Fred Johnson [00:39:54] We got two other new houses down on. One on this side and one on the other side.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:39:59] And I have no idea what those people do.

Fred Johnson [00:40:00] We've never even met them.

Angela Robinson [00:40:02] Okay. They home all day.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:40:04] I don't know about them. [crosstalk] I hardly ever walk to 75th Street. I used to walk that when I took the boy to the- one of the great, great nephews to the bus stop. I'd walk down that way and I'd talk to the gentleman, one of the men that was walking his granddaughter to the bus stop. We'd talk back and forth. But I know he said he spoke to the people across the street from here one day and they looked at him like he had said nothing. So he said, oh, well, that's why he called Fred and me the nicest people he'd ever met.

Fred Johnson [00:40:40] You notice that there's a new house there on the corner. 70 and Lagrange. There's supposed to be six of those.

Angela Robinson [00:40:48] Yeah, that's what I thought you all were talking about there.

Fred Johnson [00:40:52] We hope maybe. You know, at one time, before this guy moved in this house, there was some white ladies. I talked to them. They wanted to move. They worked at Cleveland Clinic. They came and looked at that house. It didn't look like much on the outside then. This is before they put that new siding on. They really wanted to rent that. I mean, to buy that house, I guess. But that sort of discouragement. Oh, did you frankly, Is that on tape? The police department, when I got on the job was a totally different world. That was racism from very top to bottom. It's like we didn't even exist, you know, we were relegated to certain, just certain areas. Most of the Blacks on the job at that time were either assigned to the 5th or the 6th district, which is 5th used to be right here in this area. And the 6th is out north of Superior from 5th street out and might have been one or two, maybe three in the 3rd District, which is downtown. It's all been changed now, but we were. It's just like we were non entities really. And we got the- Basically the worst jobs, worst assignments. I was on the job for about six years before I was assigned to a zone car. Almost six years.

Angela Robinson [00:42:31] What's the worst assignment?

Fred Johnson [00:42:33] Well, if you're a patrol officer, when you first get on the job, rather than walk a beat all the time, you'd like to work a zone car, you know, ride around a little bit. But I was a fill in person for several years before I got a chance to work as an on car. But I'll say this, some white guys got in trouble working the car line in this area from 55th Street to 79th Street, Hough, Superior. So they took them off the car. And I was on the first integrated car down here. We were the first Blacks assigned to that particular car ever. The neighborhood was changing, too. But there were some zone cars in the fifth district that Blacks only worked when there was nobody else to assign to that car, like Murray Hill section was always a white car.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:43:31] Oh, they sent the wrong ones.

Fred Johnson [00:43:33] Oh, they sent the wrong ones. We were sent up there from our area one day to investigate a crime at this lady's house. When she opened the door, Oh, they sent the wrong ones! [laughs]
Anna Marie Johnson [00:43:49] Speaking on that. You know, speaking on that, Jabari- When Jabari started playing baseball, Cheryl took him to a camp, and for him to. I don't know what was in the camp, but some- A man saw him and he referred him to the guy that lived in mentor. He said, you see any possibilities, you know, let me know. We just found out about this a couple of. So months ago, and sure enough, he contacted Jabari, and he and Cheryl started going to these mentor games. She went to the mentor practice, and no doubt who my grandson was on these teams. So he continued to play with these teams until they came up with a law that you have to live in mentor to play with the mentor team. But he maintained the relationship. We maintained the relationship with that family that was interested in his playing with the team. So now that their oldest son is Jabari's age, they're out of college. And then the youngest son just came out of high school. They invited us to his celebration, and we found out then that he was. Oh, he loved for Jabari to spend the night with him because Jabari would spend weekends with him for some time because he found out the bigger brothers were picking on him and Jabari would take up for him. Well, these guys got together, the two older sons and Jabari got together one evening, and when they. On their way home, they stopped by here, and Jabari came in the house. Grandma, they took me to Murray Hill. They wanted me to get killed. They took me to Murray Hill. They wanted me to get killed. I said, well, I see you didn't. So everything worked out all right. Yeah. You know, also told them about this incident with Fred. Said, yeah, he told me that. So they apparently, I guess Murray Hill has changed somewhat that they were able to have a good, good night out at the age of adults now. So they went to Murray Hill. It was strange.

Angela Robinson [00:46:05] Okay, that's interesting. Checking for looking back on history, Blacks weren't welcome over in that area.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:46:17] No. Right.

Angela Robinson [00:46:20] And Blacks were not welcome over there. And that was for a very long time until I would say, I don't know, 1980s maybe? I'm not sure.

Fred Johnson [00:46:33] Right. If- If there was, I guess they- I don't know whether they're welcome there now, but if you go there, so I understand that you don't have a problem. But at one time, this is particularly after the Glenville riots, if you drove through there, you took your life in your own hands because they knocked the windows out of your car, you know, asked you not to drive through there and that kind of stuff. We don't know how many ones they killed up there too, during the riots and got away with it. All they did, because I was in homicide unit, so I knew.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:47:06] There was one Black teacher there. It was written up in the PD some years ago. There was a Black teacher that worked up there.

Fred Johnson [00:47:14] Well, that was another incident when [inaudible] came as a school, elementary school up there. They did not want Blacks to be bussed to that school.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:47:25] And the ones that were, were on a different schedule. They had to use the laboratory different times. They did not participate in extracurricular activities or anything like that. And you know, the programs and things that they had-

Fred Johnson [00:47:40] It wasn't integrated. [crosstalk] It wasn't integrated. They had classes separate from the whites.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:47:45] Cleveland schools were on relay system and there were plenty of buildings that were vacant to which these children could have been bussed and had all day classes. But where the population was dense, they were on relay. They go to school a half day. And there were plenty of schools in Cleveland that had classrooms available for these students. But they sought not to allow this to happen. And thus you had the deseg situation come up with the Cleveland Board of Education to find out why the education in Cleveland was not equitable on the east side and the west side. That's one of the things that came up. I also found out that while I was working, I told you I was the only African American teacher at this building. And I found out on two different occasions, a teacher came back to work after having been out to raise her family. She came back. She said she was so glad she chose Corlett. And the others asked her, what do you mean, chose? Well, I was sent a list of schools from which to choose and I chose Corlett. The following year, a girl fresh out of college said the same thing. I'm so glad I chose Corlett. And she said she had a list of schools from which to choose. And at that time I was personally associated with the secretary of the naacp. And I told him, I said, now I wasn't given a list. I was told where to go. He said, I'm so glad you told me that. And that was a Part of that deseg thing. Certain teachers got lists from which to Jews and others were sent. And people migrated to the north because they didn't have the prejudice wrong. It was covert. Down South, it was overt. You knew down here, here you thought you knew. And then you had to go and get yourself humiliated more or less to find out it didn't exist, didn't happen.

Fred Johnson [00:50:06] I know they happen. The day that we, my mother came down to Louisiana to get me to bring me to Cleveland, when we took the train from Pleasant Hill, got to Shreveport, she had to go to the Black- the colored ticket window. So I'm standing around, so I see all this open area over here. And I just went and sat down. In about two minutes here comes this red-faced white guy with a station master on his cap, Get up from there and go where you belong! You know, that frightened me, but I got up and-

Angela Robinson [00:50:50] And this was here in Cleveland?

Fred Johnson [00:50:51] No, no, this was in Shreveport, Louisiana. Oh, yeah. So I said to myself, I said, well, I'm glad I'm getting away from this. We don't have to worry about this anymore.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:51:03] Wrong! I mean, you could sit, you know, they couldn't move- [crosstalk] You know, people might do like this, you know, might not want to sit next to you, but you could sit wherever you wanted. You didn't have to, you know, when you go to the show, you didn't have to go up and pay your fare at the ticket office and then go outside and go walk up the alley, go up to the top part of the last half of the balcony separated by chicken wire. Because I had that experience when I went to South Carolina, you know, I found out about it. I did see. Even when I went to. When I went to Spelman that one year, I did see colored. Colored and white at the drinking fountains and lavatories and whatnot. It was, you know, it mind boggling. I said, whoa. But at home, you know, we could go here, we could go in and out of the theaters. They didn't bother us here, but we did not go into restaurants.

Fred Johnson [00:51:57] Excuse me.

Angela Robinson [00:51:59] Okay, Are you- Are you affiliated with any community organizations or is your church involved in any community organizations and are they still active today?

Anna Marie Johnson [00:52:37] Three. Well, the church that I left St. James, I was involved with the food closet, and I still am. I still do go there for the food closet wherein you pack grocery bags on one day and you distribute them on the next. People come there, you know, they show ID and all that kind of carry on. They get that. I still do that. The church that I've Joined, they are involved in, let's see, they have an outreach committee. There are three female minister. One of them goes to the Orca House on [crosstalk] 89th and Chester. I think that's a-

Fred Johnson [00:53:01] It's a rehabilitation center.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:53:04] Rehabilitation center. Rehabilitation center for youth, I guess. And they also go to a women's shelter. I think they service maybe two women's shelters where they are, of course, I don't know. And what else? They prepare Thanksgiving and Christmas baskets for over 100 families each time. So at this age, I've been there, I've done that. And I watch the young people do. I watch the young people do. I may contribute a dollar or two here or there, but I pretty much have become more sedentary. I did it already. Now it's time for me to watch. I'll support, but I'll watch. I'm not as active as I was.

Angela Robinson [00:54:03] Can you tell me your memories about the riots, the Hough and Glenville riots in Cleveland, and if you knew University Circle, did they reach out to these areas when this was going on?

Fred Johnson [00:54:20] I can't say I know anything about those organizations reaching out at that particular time. But I believe since over time they have become more involved, I believe in trying to rehab, help rehab these communities. I don't know to what extent they've been involved. Western Reserve has done a lot, I think over- On those homes over there along Wade Park, those old, fabulous old homes, I think they were involved with rehabbing some of them and getting people to take care of them so that they can be utilized, you know. I'm not sure about anything else that they did. They did, I call it that south side of Wade Park, and they have, you know, they built those dorms and things over there, big dorms, Case Western has. So it took up a lot of area that Blacks at one time owned, you know. Now how they got them, I don't know. Not familiar with that process. But they were trying to take over a lot of the old, all the way over on Wade Park. I heard from some other people that used to live over there or that live over there now, you know. But they have not been successful. They haven't as far as I know. Now you got the Veterans Administration, they've got expanded their hospital now almost to Wade Park, if you notice that. So I don't know what else have they done? I don't know. But they Cleveland Clinic, they have a- Since they've taken over all the hospitals around, they must be involved in a lot of ways helping people in the community. But exactly what it is, I don't know. But they got people that, oh, I'll tell you what. We take Tai Chi.

Angela Robinson [00:56:30] What's that?

Fred Johnson [00:56:31] That's a form of exercise [crosstalk] to keep strengthening-

Anna Marie Johnson [00:56:36] T-A-I C-H-I. Tai Chi.

Angela Robinson [00:56:37] Okay.

Fred Johnson [00:56:39] Tai Chi. And we did take yoga for a couple of years, but they stopped it last year when the funds ran out. So we only take the tai chi class now. But Cleveland Clinic sponsors that, the class. And they also. We learned recently that they have offered yoga to any and all of their employees. This is. I try to keep people healthy, which seems to me to be opposed to what they're really all about is trying to get people sick and bring them so I can give them some drugs. But they. Apparently, they're learning from the Chinese system that a lot of this is not necessary. If you do the right exercise exercises and eat properly, you know, you can keep yourself healthy. And a lot of these things, melodies that we seem to come up with, we won't get them. You know, especially as you age, you know, you're not able to be as active as you once were sponsoring.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:57:48] If you can get there, you can get there.

Fred Johnson [00:57:52] Yeah. Now, I think they sponsor the ones out in East Cleveland, too, because here in Rural Hospital is out there. There's a teacher that we have, she goes out to East Cleveland there. She goes to Cleveland Heights there at Severance. Now, who's sponsoring them? I'm sure somebody sponsored.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:58:09] Some of those-

Fred Johnson [00:58:10] Some of them have to pay.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:58:12] She gives us a schedule and she has the amounts. Some of them, this particular teacher, some of them pay. Some of them go to. They have to pay. But Cleveland Clinic does sponsor this one at the Cleveland Cancer Society. And I think they also sponsor the one at this church. Was it East Cleveland or Windermere Church somewhere in the East Cleveland area. They sponsor there. I'm not sure they sponsor the one at Severance, though.

Fred Johnson [00:58:37] I'm not sure either. But back here a year or so ago, they had people who were attending the class, the money had run out, and we were. Well, did we have to pay when we first started? Yeah.

Anna Marie Johnson [00:58:49] No, not when we first started, no.

Fred Johnson [00:58:50] When we paid for yoga, we paid for yoga for when the funds ran out. No, we never paid for yoga because when the funds ran out, when it stopped being funded, she said she would have to have at least $80 a week. And we didn't have that many people. We didn't have those many people in the class. Only about five or six people came to yoga and tai chi. It was different. There were anywhere between 8, 10, and above and I mean, they really come in there now.Yeah. So what happened was they asked the teacher asked us to come up to write a little notice. Not a notice, but a statement about what the benefits it was we felt that we had derived from having taken tai chi. So she took all these over to Cleveland Clinic to that. What was the division? Community relations division, I guess. And they wound up accepting their funding. They funding it.

Angela Robinson [00:59:51] You have a copy of that?

Fred Johnson [00:59:53] No. I don't know. Maybe you should mention that, because they might cut our funds off. [laughs]
Anna Marie Johnson [01:00:01] I would think that would put them in the. I think that would put them in a positive limelight because you know, this teacher, Susan, Katie is her name, she's- She's an aggressive person. Meaning she doesn't stop, stand by and wait. She's aggressive. She's going to go get it. She started when she found out the funds had run out. She kept the class going. She said she would accept a free-will offering.

Fred Johnson [01:00:25] Yeah, that's right.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:00:26] You know, and while we were free-will offering, she was busy and she finally- Well, I got it funded for one more year and you know, the free-will offering stopped. And then, you know, before that year ended, she was working at getting it funded for another year. And I think right now it will probably be funded indefinitely by Cleveland Clinic. So it really is. I have told as many people as I can think of, especially when I see people walking with canes. You need to go to, you know, try tai chi, see if you can throw that cane away.

Fred Johnson [01:01:05] Oh, it's helped me tremendously. I had back surgery in 1971 down at Charity Hospital and they told me I would never be able to bend. My back would not bend. I have to always wear shoes. I'd have to put strings in them, I'd have to tie them up. I couldn't wear them, rather I had to wear slip on shoes. And since I've been taking this yoga and tai chi, I can bend that. I don't have to worry about that now. Yeah, I feel a whole lot better.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:01:33] See, more or less he accepted what the doctor said and resigned to it, you know, and then they got in these classes and. And they said, try. You put forth an effort, you try. Because one girl was having trouble with vertigo and I'm playing racquetball too.

Fred Johnson [01:01:50] And she's regained her balance. She doesn't have that problem anymore going to tai chi. So it has its benefits. It really does.

Angela Robinson [01:02:04] Okay, so regarding the riots, the Hough Riots and the Glenville Riots-

Fred Johnson [01:02:12] Well, I know that there were some things that happened in the uprights, were not properly, probably were not reported and they were not truthfully reported. Anyway, having been on the police department now I know that for the Glenville Riots that was a very difficult time for the city and Black folks suffered more than anybody else. But it happened on the east side up there at a hunting off of Lakeview. I was in the homicide division at that time and they called us I guess around 8 O'clock, 8:30 and me and my partner we had to report to Central Station, get our equipment and they told us by that time the whole area would have been court told me not to come, try to come up Chester or Euclid. Going to hearing we had to go take the circuitous, circuitous route from way up Lee Road and go around that way to get to the hospital where not the ones that were killed were taken but the ones that got wounded because there were three killed. I think it was seven other police officers that were shot. Now when we got to the they wouldn't even talk to us because at the time I was wearing my afro and I had a little red, Black and green flag led by lapel. So a lot of them thought I was a Black nationalist, you know. But when we got there they wouldn't even talk to us. We had to get information about them, what their names were from the hospital records, you know. Of course, we were never allowed to do any follow-up investigation at all. It was taken over by some senior homicide people. Of course they were white.

Angela Robinson [01:03:59] What started the riot?

Fred Johnson [01:04:00] What started the riot? As I recall, there was a tow truck was sent to the area to tow a car and it was fired upon by some of the so called black nationalists or somebody in the area. And that's what started it. And the police responded and they were either they were shot at or they shot at some people and it escalated from there. You know, several Blacks got killed, but Black folks on this side of town, if they were out there after that took place, they were in fair game. Several bodies were found up along track Avenue around 162nd, 103rd and I'm sure, I don't know for sure, but the reports read these victims were victims of a riot. They don't know how they were shot and I don't know.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:05:23] Yeah, go ahead. When Fred came, he was working the 3 8, 11 shift and when he came home to get his riot gear on, his older daughter hit the floor. Oh, she screamed, she hollered, daddy, please don't go, Please daddy, please don't go. She performed somewhat terribly. And he was able to break away and get on back in the car. And she just had a crying fit. And I just had to tell her that she's father's day job and that's something that he has to do. So we just pray that he stays safe. That's all we can do.

Fred Johnson [01:05:40] We never went over to the area that night. We left the hospital and went on back down to Central Station to make our reports, such as they were. But it was tough during those days times. And for anybody whom they felt might have- How should I say that? All Black officers, all of them were not against what- I mean, how would I want to put this? Now not all the officers were not bad. There were some very nice guys that I worked with, but there were a lot of significant number of them just, you know, and we knew they were racist, you know, some of them went walking around with their- Couldn't believe this. I went to a homicide scene on 118th in a union one day and somebody had just gotten killed in a bar. And I seen this white officer, he's got, on his pistol he's got a Nazi, Nazi emblem hanging from his pistol, you know, the swastika. Then he's got the iron cross around his neck. I went and reported that to the proper authorities.

Angela Robinson [01:07:09] He wanted to make a statement, I assume. He wanted to make a statement.

Fred Johnson [01:07:11] Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] there were a lot of them that-

Anna Marie Johnson [01:07:14] But at the same time, he was chastised for wearing his Black nationalist symbol in his lapel. And his hairstyle was questionable.

Fred Johnson [01:07:26] Oh, yeah, Sergeant, when are you going to get a haircut? No, we'll forget him. I said, my hair is not as long as yours, Sergeant. And I said, I'll tell you what, I can comb my hair once a day and it's in place. I comb it in the morning and at night when I go to bed, it's still in the same place it was when I combed it. I say, but every time I look around, you got a comb. Which one is a good hair and which one is a bad hair? Mind behaves. Oh, he was a. A funny guy. Sergeant, this is the time I was assigned to the first sex crimes unit the department ever had. So this one afternoon, me and my partner came to work in the previous shift and asked us to take some witnesses home because they were getting off. We had to take them over on the west side. So the policewoman who was assigned to our shift, we were downstairs at Central Station in the garage and the car. There was four people had to sit in the car. So she didn't want to sit back there with them. So we Put her between us. And we get ready to drive out of Central Station. And my sergeant comes in. Hold on, hold on. Oh, this will never do. This will never do. Do you know, he went and got her own police car. He didn't want her riding in the car. Between us two, two Black detectives. That was really something.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:09:06] And the beat goes on.

Fred Johnson [01:09:10] She was a very nice person. It wasn't long ago. But I tell you, I got to tell you, this is a little. Aside from what we're doing, we're working.

Angela Robinson [01:09:22] Why do you think University Circle and its bordering neighborhoods didn't merge together to form like a larger community or a closer relationship, or did they?

Fred Johnson [01:09:38] I think they've somehow come close to being very closely attached to now because I guess they can only expand so far. University Circle, I mean, University Hospital can't expand so far. They can't go much further east because that area. I know they're not going to take over Little Italy. They're right up against them right now. They can't go that much further that way. So they have to sort of try to figure out a way to come down, down this way. That's University. I mean, University Hospital. Now, they seem to be. Have a better way of cooperating. Now, wasn't that in the paper back here a few weeks ago about them coming together on some project still working on yesterday? I read some of this before then. While they're coming together on some issues they want to deal with. Mm-hmm.

Angela Robinson [01:10:43] Do you think that this, that the Euclid Quarter Project will help bridge the relationship between University Circle and its surrounding areas? Glenville, Hough?

Fred Johnson [01:10:57] Well, here's what my first thought was when I first heard they were going to come up with these new buses, And particularly the area from Public Square to University Hospital, that area. I said, first of all, when they complete this, they're going to have to have two sets of buses. And this is now funny, but I could see. I said, well, white folks are not going to get on these buses with some of these Black folks. And the way they acted on these buses and the way they look, you know, and the clothes they wear, I said, no, I didn't want to get on with them. You know, I hope that's not true, but I don't see it now. They got these big, long double buses. If they start off in East Cleveland and there's mostly Blacks on there, when they get out of University Circle, they're not going to want to get off.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:12:09] I don't know if they're going to have- They're going to have the buses running just between Public Square and University Circle and that's it?

Fred Johnson [01:12:15] That's it. That's those new buses. Yeah, as far as I know.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:12:19] Oh, then they won't be in East Cleveland for number one. [crosstalk] But I would like to see do more about making sure that things can be available to the surrounding neighborhoods by the prices they charge for entry into these various museums. And also getting the word out that maybe there are classes that you can take at the art museum or maybe there will be special classes at those music places like the Settlement and the Institute wherein young folk that are interested can go in. Or maybe they can have some tryouts to find out if a child is gifted enough or has a talent for. And maybe give them a lesson or two at a rate that the family can afford. I would really like to see them reach out in that respect to make things more affect affordable for this surrounding neighborhood. Because let's take a look. Most of these people are Section 8. A lot of these people are food stamps. And they aren't going. They don't have the funds to go into and enjoy. Now. When I was growing up, these places were free. I went to the art museum on Saturday for lessons. I didn't pay anything. I took music lessons at the Cleveland Music School Settlement. I understand that they still prorate your fee according to family income. I understand they still do that. But these things were just available. Of course, these other museums that are in the area that used to be Wade park, we would go there for outdoor socials. I don't use the word picnic anymore. We go there for outdoor socials. The church would have its outdoor social, summer outdoor social there. The area, the water that's in front of the art museum, there was a sandy shore. We could sit on the shore and go and wait in the. Wait in the lagoon. And they used to have rowboats on this other side where the tennis courts are in that body of water. They used to have rowboats there. You could get into a rowboat and row up and down that area. Of course, all of that is no longer in existence. But they do need to make the area more accessible financially to the surrounding neighborhoods. That's my opinion. They're there in the heart of it. And some of us, you never can tell what you might do to the neighborhood and people that live therein if they had the opportunity to experience, have the experience. Because I enjoyed my experiences, even though I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler, I still- It was some place to go on Saturdays, you know.

Fred Johnson [01:15:05] I say when they put the new buses on, they're going to have to keep the number six [laughs] because you're going to have white folks riding the new buses. Number six, you put the Black people on. Do you have a machine on?

Angela Robinson [01:15:20] Okay.

Fred Johnson [01:15:21] I want to show you something. You might be familiar with this book, Without Sanctuary. If you're not, you need to be. The reason- Just look at it.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:15:36] The pictures are enough for you to keep the book closed. I couldn't- I couldn't go through that.

Fred Johnson [01:15:48] Yeah, I went to John- I graduated from Rawlings in 1945 and I started at John Hay. I went there for the first year and after the first year at the 10th grade, I completed that. Then I had to choose my major. Then I had to go and confer with my guidance counselor. And her name was Ms. Ethelwyn Bobenmeyer. Her name was Bobeneyer. So I told her I wanted to take the bookkeeping course. Hopefully I might be able to get a job. She says, no, you might as well take the general course or the retail store course because you're not going to be able to get a job as a bookkeeper anyway. These other courses will give you just enough points to satisfy the state requirements. I insisted and I went ahead and I completed successfully the bookkeeping course. Meanwhile, for the previous. For my last two years of high school, maybe more than two years, I worked as a janitor, assistant janitor at Oster Manufacturing Company. They made. They made lathes and other kinds of machine tool equipment down on 61st and 61st Place at Carnegie. Anyway, I was working on. What I did was I was the assistant janitor. I'd go to work for two, two and a half hours every evening. I would work to help clean, clean up the office section of the building. And then on Saturdays I would be there, work an eight hour day. So during my time there, after I'd been there for about a year, they learned that I was taking bookkeeping. And I'd learned different office machines. You know, the calculators, I know how to utilize them. Same kind. They use comptometers and the electric Friden machines and operate them. So the head bookkeeper would have me come in on Saturday sometime and do some of his light work in bookkeeping, like the trial balances, you know, just do the adding up the columns and also the worksheets for the company. So with that experience, when it came time I graduated, you know, I said, well, well, after I graduated I was out of school for a couple of weeks. I said, well, it's time for me to ask if I could get a job there in the office. His name was Harry Robb. He was the office manager. He ran back in his seat, put his hand behind his head, Fred, I'd like to do it, but if I did, I'd lose half my office staff. I wish I could hire you here, but this wouldn't be accepted. So he said, but I'll look out for you over in the plant. Whenever a job comes open over there in the foundry, maybe I'll be able to get you in over there. The founder was what they call the heat treat department, where they heated these tools up, harden them and whatnot, put them in a solution. And that was the most dangerous work over there and the hardest work in the plane. It was a small foundry, but I never got a job there. Anyway, I went ahead on and got a job at Chase Brass and Copper out there. I was making $75 a week. That was a lot of money. Whoa. Couldn't hit me off. That's where I accidentally threw some hot copper shavings into the furnace I was operating. And that molten copper jumped out on my foot and burned my foot on it. It's there now. The scar never left. So my dad wouldn't let me go back out there and work anymore. He said, you just come on home. So I stayed home till I recuperated. And then my next job was at Dunbar Life Insurance Company where I was the offset press machine operator. I made all the forms. You know, the suppliers sent supplies out to their regional offices and whatnot, branch offices around the country. And I didn't like that. That's when I went ahead and signed up and went to the Air Force after that. Wasn't making enough money. This is at $75 a week. They gonna cut me down to 35, $40 a week. No, it wasn't gonna work. No. Yeah.

Angela Robinson [01:20:41] Okay. So that's all the questions that I have. I want to thank you for helping, participating in the project.

Anna Marie Johnson [01:20:57] I just wish you well and hope everything turns out fine.

Fred Johnson [01:21:00] But I'd like to mention this. I would hope this last one here. Do you think the Euclid Corridor project will help bridge the relationship? I hope that it does, but it seems to me like since they're going to be rehabbing all these buildings down toward the square and putting in new shops and whatnot downtown, the areas on either side. I hope that they- some benefits do come to the communities on either side of Euclid Avenue. And I hope they'd come in. Cleveland Clinic's fine with me if they come buy these buildings over here and turn them, tear them down, build some housing over here. That would assist us who have invested in this area. You know, it would help this guy sell that house over there too he just built. He, you know, he's a white guy, owns National Body, that auto repair shop. He's been there 40 some years. He's the one that's backing there. Supposed to be six houses in there.

Angela Robinson [01:21:59] So he built that when we thought somebody had bought it

Anna Marie Johnson [01:22:00] Yeah, but I guess he built that as an incentive to see what you can have if you come here. Look like his name for sale sign is up there. It's furnished, too. He had furniture put in there.

Fred Johnson [01:22:15] I haven't looked in. He saw furniture in there?

Anna Marie Johnson [01:22:18] Oh, yeah, it was furnished.

Fred Johnson [01:22:19] Oh, yeah?

Anna Marie Johnson [01:22:19] Furniture's in there. Yeah.

Fred Johnson [01:22:21] Okay.

Angela Robinson [01:22:22] All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Fred Johnson [01:22:25] Yeah, you're welcome.