Virgil Brown Interview, 16 April 2008

Virgil Brown [00:00:02] And we're recording.

James Calder [00:00:04] So I guess first I'll ask you to introduce yourself.

Virgil Brown [00:00:09] Hello, my name is Virgil E. Brown Sr. I live at 3106 East Wake Drive in Cleveland Heights. 44118.

James Calder [00:00:21] Okay. And you have a long history in Cleveland. I guess we can first start about just your early time here. How did you end up in Cleveland?

Virgil Brown [00:00:34] My family moved here in 1929. I was 12 years old. We moved into a home of a sister of a friend of my family in Cincinnati. Lived at 71st and Chamberlain Avenue as the first street south of Central off of 71st. And actually we lived in that block from 71st to 74th, from Central to Chamberlain. From the time I was 12 until the time I married, I was 21 years old, I lived in that block. I went to attended Quincy Elementary School and then went on to Central High School, from which I graduated in 1937. After graduation, I did attend some classes at Fenn College, which is now Cleveland State, and that's where I spent my time.

James Calder [00:01:41] What kind of early memories you had growing up in that neighborhood? What was the neighborhood like?

Virgil Brown [00:01:47] Well, it was a poor neighborhood. We were a poor family when we moved here. My father did interior decorating, paper hanging, painting and that. I'm the oldest child out of six. And I worked, grew up working a lot with my father. So I got to become acquainted with other areas like Glenville and Shaker and other parts of the county because he worked all over. I remember, of course, at that time, the main sport of most boys was baseball. And I had three brothers, but one of them was just two years younger than myself. And we grew up playing baseball. In the summertime, if we weren't doing chores around the house, we were playing baseball all day long. We spent our time doing that very little. Played a little basketball at the CWMCA and a little football also. But mainly it was baseball.

James Calder [00:02:59] Is that what a lot of kids in the neighborhood did?

Virgil Brown [00:03:01] Yes, we formed teams, we had several playground leagues, and that's how we spend our time.

James Calder [00:03:10] How was the neighborhood different from today?

Virgil Brown [00:03:17] Well, today, the last time I was through that area, many of the homes are either torn down or they're boarded up. It was a vibrant neighborhood at that time. As I said, there were many merchants stores at that time. We had butcher shops and produce shops in Central and Quincy Avenue. They were alive with those shops. I remember maybe the first couple of weeks my brother and I were here, we went around Central Avenue looking for an after school job and we both found jobs. I worked at A secondhand store and my brother worked at. I think at that time it was Kroger's. He still had the chain stores in the neighborhood and he worked there. So a part time job was easy to find. At that time, you think it's not so much today.

James Calder [00:04:19] There's not.

Virgil Brown [00:04:21] Well, it- Last time I passed through there, it didn't seem to be as vibrant as it once was. Of course, shopping has changed a lot since then. At that time it was mostly neighborhood shopping. Now of course, we have the malls and the big stores and it's a lot different. There was not a lot of travel, we didn't own a car, so it was mostly within walking distance. If we went downtown, it was on public transportation. I know my father could always find a place where there was a bargain and if we had to, he'd take public transportation, go downtown if you need to. He was quite a handyman, so he had to buy hardware, go down. I remember Kohler brothers, we used to go down there and buy. And of course May Company and Higbee's and all those stores were very well represented downtown.

James Calder [00:05:26] Do you know why? Do you think that neighborhood declined or?

Virgil Brown [00:05:35] Well, as I said, I think one thing the shopping changed. The merchants probably could not compete with the big box stores. And so the neighborhood stores where my father always enjoyed going in and bargaining with the local merchant. And I do remember that he liked to go on Monday morning, first thing if he was going to buy shoes. There were six of us, so if you had to buy shoes, he knew which merchant to go to. And they would have what I thought as a child at the time was terrible arguments. But then the next week he was back to the same one. They were really friends, but they were just arguing over an extra nickel and an extra dime. And it just kept things going in the neighborhood also. Many of the people, although they were poor, they had jobs, they make a lot of money, but they made money. And now it's not so much that way.

James Calder [00:06:46] What was the racial and ethnic makeup of the neighborhood?

Virgil Brown [00:06:50] That area was Black, Jewish, Italians mostly. Looking back, I can from the names I know there were some Polish that I can remember from the names, Koleckis, Kachenkos, people, boys that I played ball with and went to school with. But mostly they were Jewish and Italian. As a matter of fact, there would be maybe two family houses. Jewish family upstairs and a Black family downstairs or vice versa or next door. And that's the way it was. But then later on, I guess they started moving out. The Jews were moving out to mostly Glenville, and those that could afford. They went to Shaker Heights and that sort of thing, and they started scattering. We were sort of left behind, moved out later, but much later.

James Calder [00:07:52] Was there at the time when it was more integrated. I'm getting a sense from other interviews, too, that things were. Neighborhoods were more, I guess, diverse back then.

Virgil Brown [00:08:06] Yes, definitely.

James Calder [00:08:07] And was there tension at times?

Virgil Brown [00:08:13] At times, but not usual, because we lived together, worked together, played together, and, you know, it doesn't matter if we went to a different neighborhood to play and one of our teammates got in an altercation with somebody else. Well, we were all together. It didn't matter what color we wear. They were on our team. They were our teammates, and we stuck together. I think once we started separating and living in different neighborhoods, I think that's really when the tension started to mount.

James Calder [00:08:53] Do you think? And I want to get actually into politics and Glenville soon, but do you think what did the riots in Hough and Glenville, do you think that was a polarizing event or an event that made people maybe leave these neighborhoods more, or was this sort of before, too?

Virgil Brown [00:09:19] Well, I really maybe wasn't that much aware at that time. Certainly that was an event that started the exodus, but it might have been happening before. It probably was. I was not that much aware at that time, but I think it started even before then. But I think that was sort of a culmination or a breaking point.

James Calder [00:09:43] Okay, well, let's kind of switch gears. And I want to ask you about your political career, and how did that begin?

Virgil Brown [00:09:56] Well, I guess my political career came about, first of all, as soon as I was 21, I started voting. You had to be 21 at that time. And because my parents voted, they believed in voting, and so I started voting. And of course, they were Republicans, so I started voting Republican. Later, when I met my wife and her mother, they happened to have been Republicans for. So it just remained. But my active part in politics didn't start until years later. My wife, as a young girl, was always helping some candidate. She was either working in an office, sealing envelopes, or passing out literature. And when I met her, I started helping her pass out literature for various candidates. And then later on, she was involved with a group, and they started having meetings. And they would have some of the meetings in our home. And I wondered why they could stay up so late talking politics. As a matter of fact, I would many times go to bed and leave them up talking politics. But gradually they pulled me in. I think it was around 1965 or '66. When they changed from what we called the bed sheet ballot and created districts, they were looking for someone to run in District 41. It was at that time, it is now District 8. It included Bratenahl, Wards 24, 25 and 27. And I decided to run after going to several meetings and I won in the primary, but I lost in the general. I did very well in Bratenahl and I held my own in Ward 25 and did all right in 2024. But 27 had a strong Democrat organization and they defeated me. So then the next year I ran for council and I won. I won the council then three straight terms. There were two year terms at that time until I won in '67, '69, '71. In 1972, there was a big foul up in the the election process. As you probably know by now, we have a history of following up elections. So the director retired, resigned under fire and I was appointed. After much hullabaloo in the court case, I wound up as the director and I served there from '72 to '79 as director of the Board of Elections.

James Calder [00:13:14] Okay. I think it's at this time, it seems like with the Stokes and other politicians from Cleveland, it seems Cleveland was very Democratic or Democratic Party. How did you end up? Well, you said just kind of from your family and everything, you ended up being as a Republican. What was that like? That's not, you know, sort of the picture of the Republican party as in someone from Central and then Glenville. Of course there's always exceptions to the rule. But was that ever an issue or something you had to deal with or was it just.

Virgil Brown [00:13:58] Well, it's always been an issue and it's always something I had to deal with. But as I said, I wound up to start with because of that. But then after I become a little bit more aware of the two parties, I was comfortable in the Republican Party not thinking that I was going to ever run for office and what hold back that would be in this county. But as it wound up when I ran for council, I was supported by a number of Democrats. Obviously I never would have been elected. And the three terms were very well. And I was appointed then as director of the board of elections. And then after serving seven years there, I had a lot of exposure because as director of the elections you come in contact with the ward leaders and the mayors and the law directors around the county. And I would say that most of my encounters were very positive. I seemed to get along well with all of them. So then in 1980, when George Voinovich left the office of commissioner, I was sort of appointed, or you could say elected, because we had a convention within the party and there were a number of well-known names that were in there. And I came through that and was appointed to be the Commissioner. Was in '80 then in '82. I'm not sure if it was '82 that I had to run on the ballot. And then I had to run two times after that. And my last term was ending when then Governor Voinovich appointed me as director of the Ohio Lottery. And I served my last four years there at the Ohio Lottery.

James Calder [00:16:27] Can you give any sense of, I guess, sort of the workings of politics, interactions with any people you can think of that were important in any way or just kind of how it works, I guess, or worked then, or if it worked differently then and sort of has changed now?

Virgil Brown [00:16:52] Well, I'm really not too familiar with what's going on right now at that time, of course. And it has always been the Democrats who sway in Cuyahoga County. They have for a number of years, I guess, going back into maybe the early '30s or something when it changed over. And I've been always able to work across the aisle, as they say. When Carl was elected, I was a strong supporter of his. We both served the same constituency. We had pretty much the same ideas of what we wanted to do, how we wanted to help people. And so it really was not a big thing as far as him being a Democrat and me a Republican. There was a separation, of course. We had our different caucuses in council. I don't think from the time I was elected, we never got over six Republican councilmen and council persons, because I do remember that we had a woman who was also one of the Republicans, but there were only six of us, and we didn't make a lot of difference unless there was a split among the Democrats then we could sometimes be the balance of power, but we worked pretty much together across the aisle. They had their caucus and they had the power, but we did our part to have as much influence as we possibly could.

James Calder [00:18:43] Do you think. You know, that's so not the perception of things now, of things being so divided along party lines? Do you think at the time things. Do you think it was just a unique situation in Cleveland, or did you see a lot more working across party lines at that time?

Virgil Brown [00:19:05] I think there was. I think there was. As I say, I'm not privy now to what goes on right now. City Council. And as far as I know, I don't think there are any Republicans in City Council now. So it's different.

James Calder [00:19:24] Okay. What were some of the major sort of projects or issues that you dealt with at the time, any of the times?

Virgil Brown [00:19:36] Well, there were several things that we dealt with. I remember a number of abandoned buildings that had to be torn down. I remember one of my projects that I was proud of was an old theater up around 105th superior. It was an eyesore, and it took a long time, but we finally got it down. I remember a playground we were trying to build out at 123rd and Superior. And I was very much involved in that. I remember the 911 emergency service. I worked very hard on that. There were a number of projects that I involved myself in.

James Calder [00:20:23] Were there any? I guess what were some of the most, I guess, hotly contested issues that either you yourself worked on or the things that. That were happening at the time or? When I say the time, I guess I mean throughout your political career, what was memorable?

Virgil Brown [00:20:44] Well, I was not that much involved in it, but I do remember the housing situation, the housing argument about new homes to be built out in the southeast section of Cleveland. And then I think there was something to do with Euclid Beach. I remember all the details of it. That was some of the things. And there were several others that have escaped my mind by this time.

James Calder [00:21:15] During some of your times in office around Cleveland, those were some really tough times for the city. Was there a feeling of that, or what was the feeling, leadership of Cleveland at the time?

Virgil Brown [00:21:32] Well, of course, I have seen a lot of tough times in Cleveland, even before I ever was involved in politics. I remember back in the '30s, I guess, when we had. I think at one time the city actually didn't pay off in cash. It paid off in script or something like that. I don't remember the details of it, but I do remember that. What was the result of that, I really could not tell you. I don't remember. I also remember the old alphabets, the PWA and the WPA. And even in school we had the NYA, National Youth Administration. And just some of the things I remember.

James Calder [00:22:27] Going through- I'm sorry to ask again. When did you say you moved to Cleveland?

Virgil Brown [00:22:32] 1929.

James Calder [00:22:34] Okay, so right after you moved was onset of the Depression?

Virgil Brown [00:22:38] Yes, yes, I guess it was starting at that time. My father. I think the reason we moved. My father worked in construction at that time. And the construction apparently was going a little better in Cleveland than it was in Cincinnati, and we moved here.

James Calder [00:22:58] What was the Feeling of that? Was there a feeling of sort of an awareness of how big this crisis was?

Virgil Brown [00:23:11] Well, I think for poor families it probably was not as devastating as it was for the more affluent because they'd been used to poverty and things that were devastating to some people were not as devastating for others because the situation did not change that drastically. It was the same. There were six of us. My father was a very ingenious man as far as many ways to make an honest dollar and to put food on the table. And he was able to do that. He knew how to stretch a dollar and he knew how to make one. He had many ways to either interior decorating or construction or even to waiting table. All kind of things that he did just to keep us going.

James Calder [00:24:18] Excellent. I want to go, keep going back to politics. I guess I will, if that's all right.

Virgil Brown [00:24:25] Sure.

James Calder [00:24:29] What were, I guess I'll go back to. You said you got into politics around '65, is that right?

Virgil Brown [00:24:38] Yes.

James Calder [00:24:40] And then through the '70s. I guess I'll just say about some events I know as being. I'll go back to the riots and in Glenville. First of all, I guess what was your experience?

Virgil Brown [00:24:57] Well, I was in council at the time and so I was well aware what was going on and how we tried to keep the lid on. And I remember spending one night at all night at city hall because we didn't know what was going to happen. And it was just a general, general feeling of frustration and a general trying to do what we could in the neighborhoods to keep the conflagration down. And that's it. I was not being a Republican. I was not on the inside of many of the conferences that were held, but I knew generally what was on, going, going on.

James Calder [00:25:49] Was there a feeling of, were they expected? Was there something people were sort of, I don't want to say knew was going to happen, but had feared was going to happen for a while?

Virgil Brown [00:26:07] I think there were studies that showed that certain cities were like a powder keg just needed something to ignite it and this was the ignition.

James Calder [00:26:23] Do you know what started the riots either in Hough? Not the long term things, but the specific incidents?

Virgil Brown [00:26:35] No, I cannot remember exactly what ignited the one in '68. I think it was. I'm not sure.

James Calder [00:26:49] What was the plan to after they happened? What was the plan to sort of rehabilitate those neighborhoods or get through these incidents?

Virgil Brown [00:27:03] Well, there were a lot of plans and some of them never came to fruition. But there were plans to try to rebuild and there has been some rebuilding, but there was a lot of devastation. And then not only from the riots, but just from the economy going down. There was a lot of abandoned houses, a lot of houses that people walked away from. I know because my father had a contract with, I think it was Cleveland Trust at that time to paint and repaper many of those houses. I worked with him. We worked in a lot of vacant houses. Sometimes we work almost all night because he wasn't paid much, but he was paid by the room. So the more rooms we did, the more he would make. And I spent a lot of time helping him.

James Calder [00:28:15] Where did you move to from when you moved from the central area?

Virgil Brown [00:28:18] Well, actually, when we moved from the central areas in 19, we moved first to Mount Pleasant on the 42nd off of Kent, and stayed there for a while. But in 1947, we got our little finances together and founded. We thought we had enough to make a down payment on the home. And I found a home in Glenville at 99th and Park Gate. And we bought a home there in 1945. That was the year my son was born. Matter of fact, when my wife came home from the hospital, she moved into the new house. So our son never. He never lived in a rented home from that time we were there, but that was in '45. I was aware of Glenville because I had worked in Glenville with my father hanging paper and painting. And I knew there was something nicer and better. And Glenville at that time was really a very nice area. Known as the Gold Coast at that time. And the Glenville Area Community Council was formed. And it was formed in association to help the new residents get started, teach them about how to take care of the homes and about insurance and various things that they needed to know about owning a home.

James Calder [00:29:58] Can you offer any real descriptions of the area? Like, what did it look like, who lived there?

Virgil Brown [00:30:06] Well, it was at that time, as I can remember, mostly Jewish people. And they were starting to move out. We were moving in, and the street we moved on, Parkgate, was, well, mixed at that time. But gradually, gradually, the old residents started moving out. And we started moving in and gradually changed over. It stayed very nice for a long time. But then many of the new owners, especially if they bought two families, they started moving out. They had gained enough equity to move out. And then, of course, you had renters. And I think that's where the deterioration started.

James Calder [00:30:55] Do you think that the Jewish population is moving out because African American Americans were moving in, or were they moving out? Just sort of. That natural progression out to the suburbs.

Virgil Brown [00:31:12] I think much of it was natural progression. In other words, you can take the African Americans that moved in. Many of them have moved out now because as they gained equity and more money, they moved farther out, I guess. So it's a natural progression. Now, I'm sure there some moved probably because they didn't like the new residents, but I think most of them was a natural progression.

James Calder [00:31:44] Did people, you know, when this was an integrated, more integrated neighborhood, did people tend to get along across?

Virgil Brown [00:31:52] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think neighbors with, like, aims and desires get along all right. I mean, if I move in next to you and I need to borrow your lawnmower or something, that just happens, you know, it's natural. I mean, unless you have to moving next to a grouch of whatever color he is, you know. But other than that, I think it's like area where we live now, there still some white families. We get along just fine.

James Calder [00:32:35] What's Cleveland hindsight? How your experience has been there?

Virgil Brown [00:32:39] Well, my experience has been very good. There has been some exodus there, too. The street I was moved into, maybe it's down to about two white families now, two or three. But half the street was white when I moved in.

James Calder [00:33:02] Where was that again?

Virgil Brown [00:33:03] Eastwick Drive in Cleveland Heights. It was off of Monticello.

James Calder [00:33:12] Do you think? Well, one thing we've been talking about is sort of the Glenville, then also sort of the western edge of the University Circle. There was quite. It seemed to be a really vibrant area. For a while. We were thought to be nightlife, lots of restaurants, bars, things like that. Do you remember that area at all? Especially, I think, on 105th? East 105th?

Virgil Brown [00:33:45] Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember it very well. Well, a lot has changed. I mean, there used to be several big theaters there. You know, when I was a young man, it was. Quite a place to go for dates. Gradually, I guess that too is like everything else, the theaters have moved out and you now go out to one of the malls where they have five or six theaters under one roof there. It's so different than it used to be. But around 105th in Euclid used to be quite a mecca for theaters and nightclubs.

James Calder [00:34:36] Did you ever used to go to them?

Virgil Brown [00:34:38] Oh, yeah.

James Calder [00:34:39] Can you offer any descriptions? Like, what did they look like?

Virgil Brown [00:34:45] Well, we thought of, you know, we thought of 105 and Euclid maybe is like a second downtown. So it was a real treat to take your girlfriend and go to Alhambra in one of those big theaters. It was quite an outing. But now it's not so much. And there were a couple of bowling alleys around there, real nice ones. And there was a dance hall, Trianon Dance Hall. And then they would change into the bowling lanes and Lucky Strike. Several of them around there. Things, they've changed.

James Calder [00:35:31] Do you think, for someone like. For someone like me, who's never seen any of that, what did it look like going down the street? I guess that's what I. I've asked a lot about it, but I'd love to have a sense of just what.

Virgil Brown [00:35:50] Maybe somebody who is a lot more descriptive than I am. But, you know, it's like at night, bright lights, all lit up. Everything was. Just looked like big time, you know, almost like some portions of New York, but it's all gone now.

James Calder [00:36:15] Were there people on the streets walking around?

Virgil Brown [00:36:19] Yes, and plus the fact that the big bands, which I guess we don't have anymore, Benny Goodman, Jimmie Lunsford, Duke Ellington, all those bands came to the Trianon. And I remember one outing, my wife and I still talk about it. We went downtown to one of the- I don't remember if it was Loew's or which theater it was. Benny Goodman came and he was playing and it was one song there. He played and people got so excited. They were dancing in the aisles in the theater. We still talk about that date. I must have spent $10 on it.

James Calder [00:37:08] What were the crowds like? Was it people of all types or just certain types of people?

Virgil Brown [00:37:17] No, as far as I'm concerned, it was just all types of people. Anybody who wanted entertainment. People who maybe like to dance or people who just like to listen. So you had a mix of people. And as I said at that time, you had a lot of bands, big bands, you don't have that now. You had just a number of bands that would come through.

James Calder [00:37:43] Were people still dress up to go out at that time?

Virgil Brown [00:37:48] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. Not as casual as they is now.

James Calder [00:37:58] Did you have a favorite spot either there or anywhere, really? A favorite spot you would go for entertainment?

Virgil Brown [00:38:06] No, I like to go downtown. I like to go to one of the theaters, maybe if something was playing or if they had a stage and they had some live entertainment, depending on where they entertain, what the entertainment was.

James Calder [00:38:22] What were some of your favorite entertainers?

Virgil Brown [00:38:25] Well, Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington, Jimmie Lunceford, Count Basie, Chick Webb. A lot of people you probably never heard of.

James Calder [00:38:44] I wasn't planning on asking about this, but just to talk about entertainment makes me think of the WHK Theater. Or WHK radio station. Do you remember that?

Virgil Brown [00:38:55] Yeah, sure.

James Calder [00:38:56] What was that like at the time?

Virgil Brown [00:39:04] Well, it was nice. I remember once we went there and my wife still talks about it because our daughter was a little girl. And at the time, I don't remember what the event was, but no children allowed. So my wife talked to whoever was in charge and said, my daughter will be quiet. And she talked to our daughter. She said, now, when you come in here, you got to sit down, you got to be quiet. You can't. And the child sat through the whole thing without ever whimpering once. So we still talk about that.

James Calder [00:39:41] Do you remember who you were going to see?

Virgil Brown [00:39:43] I don't remember what it was. No, I really don't.

James Calder [00:39:47] Because they had the large auditorium.

Virgil Brown [00:39:50] Yes.

James Calder [00:39:52] And around 4900 or 5000 Euclid.

Virgil Brown [00:39:57] Yes.

James Calder [00:39:59] And the radio station as well was quite innovative, if I understand.

Virgil Brown [00:40:05] Well, I'm not sure when it changed over or anything, but yes, yes.

James Calder [00:40:16] Was there a sense, do you know, if there was a sense of that around Cleveland? It still kind of is as being a music city. Was that part of it? Just a sense of.

Virgil Brown [00:40:25] Well, it's still a lot of. I guess with the rock and roll and other areas around, it's just a lot different. Of course, you know, we've grown a lot older, so it's not the same interest, but it always was, you know, always was a great hub for entertainment.

James Calder [00:40:52] Is there anything else? Is there anything else you would like to talk about?

Virgil Brown [00:40:59] No, I would just like to say I have certainly enjoyed Cleveland. Growing up in Cleveland. I think it's a great place and I have been to other cities. I enjoy visiting New York, Chicago, but I'm always happy when I'm back in Cleveland. I enjoyed and think I got a good education as far as I went in school here. Both of our children graduated school here. They both were fortunate enough to go on to college. But Cleveland is a good place, I think, to raise children, for education, for entertainment. And it was at one time a good place as far as diversity of jobs. Hopefully the economy will come back, but I bought my first home. I was working in a factory that now is not quite as possible as it used to be. But all in all, I've enjoyed the years in Cleveland. I had nothing to do with moving here in '29, but I'm glad my family came.

James Calder [00:42:15] Hey just a couple follow ups. Do you think, you know, any efforts of trying to make the economy more diverse here off of more diverse jobs, or do you have any insight into what I guess on the political level people have tried to, done, tried to do to sort of fix the economy.

Virgil Brown [00:42:42] Well, I don't really have any earth shaking ideas. I know that many of the jobs that were available when I was a young man will never be back. I think there should be an effort to bring back some of the jobs. Everybody is not going to become some sort of a communications expert. Everybody's not going to be computer wise. And so I think we need jobs for the mass of people so that they can earn a decent living, educate their children, buy a home and have some independence in the old age. I hope for that day again.

James Calder [00:43:36] Do you think the manufacturing living here was just sort of devastating?

Virgil Brown [00:43:42] Well, I think it was devastating. Maybe I'm biased because I was such a beneficiary of the manufacturing and I know that high school graduates, even dropouts, by being diligent and working hard can earn a decent living in manufacturing and that's not too possible today.

James Calder [00:44:12] Do you think it? Well, I guess I can either ask your opinion or what you know about U.S. opinions, you know, things like LTV Steel, you know, is there a sense of, you know, we need to make altitude steel work again or is that seen as something that's just probably not going to happen, you know, considering the global economy?

Virgil Brown [00:44:40] Well, I don't know if it'll happen again because so many people today aren't even aware of what it was like and I don't know if. Many people even be willing to do that kind of work anymore. I don't know. I came out of high school, I worked at Republic Steel for a year. Hired hot jobs in the coke ovens. Coke ovens? You.

James Calder [00:45:16] What is a coke oven?

Virgil Brown [00:45:18] Yeah, well, a coke oven. Do you know what coke is?

James Calder [00:45:27] Did you own it? A drink?

Virgil Brown [00:45:29] Oh no, no, not that kind. Not the other kind either. This was a fuel and it was made by- In huge ovens cooking coal. Coal. Slag. Slag is the fine pieces of coal and you cooked it to a high degree and then it was pushed out and quenched and broken up and it came in lumps and it was used in certain industries and so that's- It would take me a lot more time to really explain it to you and there's none around. I don't think there are any around now that you would see. Probably have a different process altogether. But. So there aren't people around who would, I don't think who would push for that. But the industry, steel industry, I think it provides a lot of jobs on all the way up and down the line. And let's face it, certainly we all need to get an education as much as we can. But there are always going to be some people who aren't going to be on the upper rungs of education. They're going to be on the lower end. And I think they too need to be provided productive work where they can make a decent living wage.

James Calder [00:47:02] Oh, can you describe the work you did in the co puppet, what it was like, what he did?

Virgil Brown [00:47:09] Yeah. Well, it was hard and it was hot. It was the two ages hard and hot. But at that time I was a young man in need of a job. You know, he liked to try to earn money. And that was the way at that time. That was the job available at the time. And it paid more than, you know, minimum wage. So that's why.

James Calder [00:47:47] Wanted to ask about. Okay, I have two more questions.

Virgil Brown [00:47:51] Okay.

James Calder [00:47:53] What about the Glenville neighborhood today? You know, besides the housing and sort of the lack of. From my understanding, there's not. There's not many even really stores there anymore. It's not like it used to be. And there's also crime issues and areas like that. Do you know sort of when that happened and what maybe why and then maybe what people start to do about it?

Virgil Brown [00:48:26] Well, I think it takes someone wiser than me to say why. I know that as far as the stores are concerned, shopping is different. People leave the neighborhood and they go to a mall and they buy from the big box stores. And of course, the economy being down, people aren't making money to sustain themselves as well. And of course, as my mother used to say, the idle mind is a devil's workshop. So if you're idle, there's going to be more crime. People working every day, all day. Then it cuts down on crime. But if you're sitting around with no money, nothing to do, you know, somebody's going to get an idea. It's not so bright. And that's what happens in my estimation.

James Calder [00:49:26] And then one final thing. Just because we're doing this for University Circle and I had asked about it. Do you have any memories of University Circle or that area?

Virgil Brown [00:49:40] Yeah, I remember this museum we're in now. I remember when I guess when I was growing up, the Natural Museum was over in this area someplace. I remember coming over here as a child. I always loved that particular museum. So I remember we had excursions over here, field trips from school, art museum, Museum of Natural History, that sort of thing. So yeah, I remember this area.

James Calder [00:50:17] Do you think this area Tarantis a reputation as being in sort of arts, cultural, that sort of area?

Virgil Brown [00:50:30] Well, yes, and I think that there are some people who have worked very hard to keep it that way. And I think it's good. I think it's a place people can come. Or to Severance. Severance Hall, the museums. Yeah, I think it's very good.

James Calder [00:50:50] Is it, you know, being a sort of neighboring neighborhood to an area like Glenville? Is there a feeling of if the two neighborhoods are connected in any way? Has it been a normal thing to sort of just go from Glenville to University Circle? Sometimes I think what I mean is included Heights. It seems sometimes they feel like similar neighborhoods. Although they're very different. They're just spread down a hill.

Virgil Brown [00:51:22] Well, I guess there are those of us who still use it. And until a few years ago, I was over here quite a bit. I don't get around as much anymore now. But there were always a lot of events over here that we would come to. And then just to visit and look at the automobiles. Museum of Natural History, I always loved as a kid. Art museum. Yeah. I think it's good they've kept it going.

James Calder [00:51:58] Okay, excellent. And you can have the last word. Anything else you'd like to add?

Virgil Brown [00:52:02] No, I'd say thank you for this interview. I like to talk about Cleveland. I enjoyed it.

James Calder [00:52:09] Thank you very much.

Virgil Brown [00:52:10] Thank you.

James Calder [00:52:10] Thank you, too.